Talk:The Sinclair Deluxe
The Fuel Pump Previous: The check-in station is located at the frontmost part of the hotel with a mail room adjacent. Further ahead is a Fuel Station. Rather than connecting the stoves and heaters in the apartments Sinclair had the tenants pay for their fuel and take it to their rooms. Current: The check-in station is located at the frontmost part of the hotel with a mail room adjacent. Further ahead is a Fuel Station, likely a profitable convenience for construction workers who live in the Sinclair Deluxe. The newer update may be more likely, but wasn't the construction on the Atlantic Express completed when Pauper's Drop was set up? Unownshipper (talk) 23:07, February 22, 2014 (UTC) "The building, already in a poor state thanks to Sinclair" :It's not really supposition when Sinclair himself calls it a slum. From Sinclair Deluxe & Sinclair Spirits, Wrong Side of the Tracks, and the rest of Sinclair's Audio Diaries it's evident that he cuts corners wherever he can to save a buck. :Unownshipper (talk) 22:56, June 5, 2014 (UTC) : He milked the tenants for what they were worth :Rather than accuse someone of being a Communist, perhaps you should refresh yourself on some common idioms: :A Cash cow is business jargon for a business venture that generates a steady return of profits that far exceed the outlay of cash required to acquire or start it. :From that, we get "Milking someone," in this case, his tenants. With the meager investment he puts into getting them dependent upon him, Sinclair earns a steady profit from their rent, their labor, and their bar bill (Sinclair Deluxe, the "piecemeal needle scam," Sinclair Spirits, and who knows what other kind of scam he's got going on). Look at the Sinclair Home Rewards Program and tell me that's not a means of profiting off others pain. At NO POINT is anyone insinuating that Sinclair OVERCHARGED people. And will you please sign your posts!? :Unownshipper (talk) 07:28, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :Who says it 'far exceeds the cash outlay' (in this case)? Are you making an assumption here ? And what is considered 'far exceed' in Rapture or in our world (by other than communists who dont think ANY profit is justified - historically leading to the shithole status of things communists control when private motivation/incentive to improve anything is removed) ? :"Meager investment" - like building an entire hotel of the quality implied (before Lambs communist likely let it sink into ruin - afetr all wwe see it YEARS after Sinclair had anything to do with it)? :'Pain' you mean like Elliot_Nelson calling Sinclair a 'sucker' for giving him such easy work ? :If then, Sinclair didnt 'OVERCHARGED people' then how exactly is it defined as a 'scam' ??? : 03:08, November 23, 2015 (UTC) and its rooms "ratholes" :Please sgn your posts. :The whole thing is a disparaging comment, but "slob" is the insult directed at the individual. Maybe you should more closely read the audio diary: "shacked up here" and "assembles 'em in his rathole." While Sinclair is adding insult to injury, "rathole" is clearly describing the place. Now who's the only person we know for certain is incolved in the scam? Elliot Nelson. And where did he live and make these needles? In the Deluxe (we even see his favorite spot to assemble them in the hotel). He's talking about THE SINCLAIR DELUXE! :Unownshipper (talk) 07:28, June 16, 2014 (UTC) : : :To directly quote the diary: If a smart fella' wanted to talk some bankrupt fat cat into moving to a slum, he'd call the place a "hotel overnightly". The tenant dries his eyes and tells himself "It's only temporary," and the smart fellow shaves a dime a day off his drinking wage. Now, a smarter fella' might also bankroll the local gin joints, and take him for the rest. :Again, you should more closely read the audio diary. Pauper's Drop, the whole district, is not the "hotel overnightly," it's the Sinclair Deluxe : "was constructed with cheap materials" :Please sign your posts. :Sinclair isn't one to mince words. There's a good reason for him to refer to the hotel as a slum and for all his residents to overthrow him. :Where are you getting the idea that the rest of Rapture was made with cheap materials? I remember plenty of places visited in Bio1 and none of them had walls falling apart or ceilings caving in. :Even the rest of the levels Subject Delta visits in Bio2 look comparatively better (there's the occasional fallen column or blocked passage, but none as bad as the Deluxe). : :What '52 Crash? When was there a banking crash in Rapture before after the New Year's Riots? Was this something that occurred on the surface? If that's the case how on Earth could that effect Sinclair? :Unownshipper (talk) 07:28, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :Sinclair used plenty of colorful language, which isnt literal (and shouldn't be taken as such). :No, there were plenty of places where the damage was worse than seen in The Sinclair Deluxe (note- years after Sinclair had anything to do with the place and after potential 'civil war' damage) :Again, a previous 'crash' (economic upheaval) probably previous to the '1958 start of the civil war (why else would there be a 'Hooverville' formed (a sign of a "Depression" which BTW never went away even with all the FDR measures) in Rapture -- unless Grace Holloway is exaggerating in her Audio Diaries to herself)? : 03:25, November 23, 2015 (UTC) : '"even in Rapture's heyday"' :Are you going to pick apart the minutiae of every single sentence with a scalpel? And Will You Please Sign Your Posts!? "Rapture's heydey" AKA before the Civil War. :Unownshipper (talk) 07:29, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :- : :Yep. If you try to use 'minutiae' as your evidence, then its fully justified. 03:09, November 23, 2015 (UTC) "already in a poor state thanks to Sinclair, " :Straight from the man's mouth, the place is a slum. Build a secure superstructure to keep out the ocean and house your hotel, fine that'll cost some money. You can save costs by cutting corners on the interior. Does Sinclair seem like the sort to go all out on anything when he can save money? Profit Coming, Profit Going, Wooden Nickels, Private Interests, :And will you please sign your posts! :Unownshipper (talk) 07:28, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :Straight from the mans mouth -- you mean likje 'fat cats' , etc.. You cant take literaly true what Sinclair says.... (otherwise ....) : 03:12, November 23, 2015 (UTC) One of these methods was by offering the buildings tenants discounts at his liquor stores :OMG Sign Your Posts Please! :In the Fishbowl Diner section of town, you'll notice a large passageway blocked off by debris. Who knows what other parts of Pauper's Drop we're not seeing. Besides that, the tenants were Rapture's poor, not Rapture's homeless. They must have had some sort of income otherwise, Sinclair wouldn't have taken them on as tenants. THINK! :And where are you getting that Grace Holloway ran The Limbo Room? The Limbo is a jazz club, not a liquor store, that's a tenuous connection. And what kind of point are you trying to make? That the Limbo room might have replaced an earlier business? So what? :Nobody's establishing NEW businesses during the civil war or the economic slump because times were too chaotic, is this to hard to understand? And nobody built anything afterwards because society had collapsed. Rapture, under Lamb's control, is not a normal city, it's a teetering commune. Under that sort of organization, no one is building up capitalistic businesses. :Unownshipper (talk) 07:28, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :Competition with all the other liquor stores ? You have to admit that there are plenty available in Rapture. So again how is this supposed to affect the inhabitants of his hotel any more than the ambient availability does already (except maybe giving them a lower price on something they already buy ??) 03:14, November 23, 2015 (UTC) Slum ? :Have you ever heard of the Harlem Renaisance? During the movement, white, liberal, upper class progressives traveled to Harlem and other neighborhoods, which were NOT great districts at the time, to listen to jazz. Grace Holloway and the Limbo Room is a thinly veiled allusion to the singers and practitioners of the movement. :So YES, the "swanky people" might have traveled to the place especially if these patrons were Lamb's upperclass admirers who went to the place to hear Lamb's manifesto as asserted by Ryan in Pauper's Drop (Audio Diary). Sign your posts. :Unownshipper (talk) 07:28, June 16, 2014 (UTC) Assumption/Speculation : "Though attractive enough to draw people in, the hotel was constructed with cheap materials" We see lots of Rapture, even the Ritziest bits in poor broken condition - in BS1 1960. We see it (Sinclair Deluxe) years later (BS2 1968) with Sinclair long gone and 'the family' in charge about the equivalent destruction. SO was all of Rapture built out of 'cheap materials' ?? The interiors are quite better style and shape than the bare tenemant of Fontaines Home for the Poor. SO this point should be removed - just mention what is to be seen -- dont speculate. 04:23, February 15, 2015 (UTC) :I don't remember Sinclair ever saying the Deluxe was built with cheap materials, just that the hotel was cheap enough for people falling off the social ladder (the Parsons perhaps?). The Deluxe looks like to Pauper's Drop what Olympus Heights is for Apollo Square: personal rooms, spacious enough to be bearable to live in, etc... The place is in ruin mostly due to poor maintenance over the 8 years following the civil war, not really the quality of materials. We also see devastation in Siren Alley where the buildings were nothing but cheap, so that can't come from cheap materials. Pauolo (talk) 13:24, March 1, 2015 (UTC) :Actually you may want to leave "working poor" in there because at lower rent for seemingly adaquate appartment space (in the years Sinclair ran it) employed people could have the choice of buying more stuff or having kids or paying for advancement training, saving up money, etc.. with the money they saved from not being in other more expensive places. That bookseller (his wife has a audio diary) was living there and that was a local shop (owner ?). The Deluxe's interior (fireplaces yet) were above a mediocre quality. With a RR Station to commute to work from, it might not have been a bad option for many people in Rapture (and Sinclair would plan on that particularly if he built it after the original building boom was over and materials and labor were much lower cost.) The neighborhood looked quite better than any "Hooverville" (and figure how much better in 1958 vs 1967) and with the local shops and the diner, etc... (probably next to the unseen Sinclair Spirits was an unseen Sinclair Grocery Store). : 15:32, March 1, 2015 (UTC) :If they really wanted to besmear Sinclair as a slumy hardcase flophouse owner, a REAL lowest quality flophouse had just open bare rooms with rope hung between the walls, on which rows of packed in down-n-out customers hung standing (arms hung over the ropes) to sleep. That would have been a sight. : 15:38, March 1, 2015 (UTC) :I was more under the impression that the working class was settled around Apollo Square, and that the Sinclair Deluxe was a cheap answer to people loosing their social status, like probably those hotels you see advertised here and there but even more affordable. But I agree that Pauper's Drop has not the look of any slum you can see in, citing the worst example of them, South America. I always seen the Drop as a small, functional town: the local clinic, pharmacy, bookstore, diner, even a Jazz club and a a flower shop. A Sinclair Groceries wouldn't be out of place too I agree. None of those buildings seemed to have been made of cheap recovered materials, they were all standard buildings in large open spaces. The Deluxe's interiors were mediocre, but I've seen worse from social buildings built in the 70s and after. I believe Holloway described the place as a hooverville out of anger for Rapture not offering its promises and robbing of her only job (and probably passion), or else she wouldn't have stayed there for 10 years (still keeping her quote because characters' opinions are a nice way to illustrate the beginning of a page). Also she had been occupying the penthouse at the time she was living with Eleanor, so she probably made enough money from her singing performances. :That extreme sight you mention would have probably be common in the then over-populated Apollo Square turned into a ghetto for political reasons. Speaking of cramming people in buildings, have you ever watched Soylent Green? Before that movie, I would have never imagined more than 20 people sleeping on the same flight of stairs. Pauolo (talk) 16:17, March 1, 2015 (UTC) - In Soylent Green it was set in an overpopulated world where the bulk of the population were crammed/restricted into legacy cities to free up the countryside for agriculture and to keep hungry people from simply going to the farms to get food. In the movie, its plain that food-riots were a common occurance. Other such pictures are early photographs of Industrial era slums/tenements (done by reformers to try to effect changes via grass roots awareness) 07:30, March 3, 2015 (UTC) - ::The line has been reworded so the matter is closed, but just as a final point: everything from the Deco Devolution to the strategy guide to creator interviews to Audio Diaries to character quotes makes the assertion that Pauper's Drop is the lowest of the low, that The Sinclair Deluxe is a slum, and that Augustus Sinclair is a slumlord. The problem with this is that all of the descriptions don't quite equate to what is seen of the district in the game. ::Apollo Square, with its cramped living spaces, austere decoration, and dark atmosphere, does a far more successful job at showing working class tenemants than Pauper's Drop does as an impromptu "wrong side of the tracks" shantytown. Bits and pieces change over the course of a game's development, but there's a reason why the area is still listed as the "ghetto" in the game's files. ::I can think of only two options to explain PD's not-quite-slumly appearance: ::1. The creative staff who designed the game consist mostly of well-educated, middle to upper-class individuals who either have no idea what real poverty (especially Mid-20th century poverty) looks like or lack the ability to effectively show it in a game environment. ::2. Too many ideas (The Nighthawks-esque diner, the seedy Red-Light District, the detective's office, the Harlem-style nightclub, the church, and the whole film-noir/gangster atmosphere) being shoved together only to clash and cause the whole space to be split into two districts. Now some of the more decrepit builds are split between two areas instead of being all in the true slum: Pauper's Drop. ::Unownshipper (talk) 00:08, March 3, 2015 (UTC) :::I'd probably say option 2, probably because they wanted to add a Noire themed level and Pauper's Drop fills perfectly the role (also most of the usual locations in those movies are present there). Pauolo (talk) 18:28, March 3, 2015 (UTC) ::The vagueness/brevity of the Audio Diaries (which dont really elaborate on WHEN they were recorded or of when the situation they are talking about) strike again. Paupers Drop was no doubt originally little more than an ad hoc hobocamp/favela 'under the tracks', transitioning from RR workcamp to a place where some of Rapture's destitue found shelter (remember my Earlier economic distress theory). A 'slum'. But then it appears to have been redeveloped with real money behind it (and Lamb might spring for a soup kitchen but not the capitalistic enterprises we saw) - which again (theory) sounds like Sinclair's doing, ontop of his brand new 'Hotel' to improve the locale to bring in (more than indigent) customers for his 'affordable housing'. It probably had a better (re)name (like Sinclair Station or Opportunity Corners or somesuch). ::Years later (BS2) we see "Paupers Drop" (regaining its old name?) in a quite deteriorated state (by even BS1 most of Rapture looks pretty 'slummy', generally Splicers arent the 'This Old House' types ) so we cant really say how spiffy it might have once looked. ::You have to take what Sinclair says with a grain of salt as he denigrates many people/things/ideas and uses many colorful phrases ('slob', 'in his rat hole', 'fat cat', someone in a fancy hat', ''a big fat hooker' , 'this two-bit carny ride' .....'slum' ). :: 08:04, March 3, 2015 (UTC) :::It's all theory even if it is an interesting one. The originally appearance of Pauper's Drop after the first inhabitants started to live down there would probably fit the description of a Hooverville (for reference, wikipedia has some photos) and would have not featured more or less stable businesses, not even real buidings. One way to bring it to the article would be to point out that before the civil war and when Lamb was still around, Pauper's Drop was looking more like a small town with several local traces for the residents to live on, encampments being replaced with more or less solid buildings. Pauolo (talk) 18:28, March 3, 2015 (UTC) :::Ive been shot down before for trying to have the article say something that looks logical yet wasnt spelled out solidly in-game. Redevelopment seems to have happened there, and then all that subsequently added slap-dash squatter/refugee accumulation (people living on roofs...) happened either in Civil War or later under the Lamb regime... (See what her own headquarters looks-- its in just about the same shape). But we see "Paupers Drop" only as a moment in time during the game (and hear a smattering of Audio Diaries from indeterminant times in the past about it ) and any more definite explanations were missing. ::: 06:39, March 4, 2015 (UTC) ::::It had more with you forcing your ideas, but nevermind that now... So yes I agree, what we see of Pauper's Drop doesn't necessary correspond to what it was when the place was renamed. Still, perhaps Grace's way of describing the place, or Sinclair's, is more based on what the place inspired to the rest of Rapture. It was probably still a better home when you reached the bottom of the pit, but what good was it if everyone else ignores you? I've made a quick search for the St. Louis Hooverville, turns out it was thriving because of private donations. I can imagine Lamb doing the same, but what if Lamb was removed by the acting leaders just like when Grace recorded Better Times with Lamb? Perhaps that's what she describes are worse than St. Louis, because even the donations were taken from then and the Drop was slowly deteriorating and they had nothing or no one to maintain it. Pauolo (talk) 23:23, March 4, 2015 (UTC) ::::- :::: ::::'Thriving' might not be a great word for the Hoovervilles (its funny but they didnt go away and continued all through the 'New Deal" some upto start of WW2, yet they didnt rename them to Rooseveltvilles). Thrown together Shacks, scrounging for discarded food, camps burning down, winter weather, and city sanitation departments threatening to shut them down made them pretty miserable places. That early Paupers Drop existance 'under the tracks' also was in a confined concrete cave (look at your typical Splicer camping spots in all the games), so wasnt even as good - its an industrial site instead of open field. The later added buildings/hotel dont look like they had been crammed/stuffed with people the way the Apollo Square tenaments/Home for the Poor had (and those later 'new' buildings seen would have been the logical living space, already being sheltered and having utilities, etc... so living on rooftops is strange, can hardly be for defensive purposes... crazy Splicers...). SO post-rebuilding, the Hooverville idea/image for that doesn't really fit. ::::Grace was likely talking about that early 'before' time squalor. The redevelopment (unlikely it was Lamb's) likely allowed the Limbo Room to open and give Grace a job in that period (upto Kashmir when disorder destroyed Raptures economy). The timeline of that transition from squatter camp to midtown Manhattan style would likely be years before Kashmir (my ~1952 post construction period), and was unlikely to be after the civil war started(Lamb was incacerated when?? thats undetailed also). Massively fixing that area up that much, later under the Lamb regime times(?)... not likely - no reason, no evidence of anything equivalent anywhere else (as I mentioned - even her main base of operations was 'a dump'). ::::Even for Dionysus, where did/could Lamb get all the substantial money - probably from rich followers/dilettantes. If she had done something in that Hooverville 'Drop' it was possibly more like soup kitchens (but only if you took her pamphlets/listened to her 'message') instead of any fancy Diner business. ::::Rapturites at first may never have even known it (squattercamp) was there . Maybe it came to the attention of the 'press' and thus the public, possibly giving Sinclair his idea. If the rest of Rapture was in in economic downturn, perhaps it was something that other people thought of as a place to not want to wind up at, and thus to work harder (remember this was, even with so called New Deal, hardly the cushy welfare state we have now). ::::Later it was known -- Sinclairs Hotel advertised, Uptowners slumming at the Jazz Club, Ryans store, Fontaines Clinicm, Hamiltons was probably well known as a 'cheap hotel' for assignations. Then boom, Raptures in chaos, Splicer weirdness, Sinclairs gone and Lamb is running the place for years before we saw it. ::::As for Graces comment the tone is odd maybe because she is talking as if it was something new to her?? In the world she came from and doubly what she should have expected in Rapture... ::::I think the writers wanted to slip in some kind of racist element ('looking down their noses at us' ), but they backed off. Lots of people in that era went through bad and good times (and Ive questioned before why any 'good' artist would want to come to sucha small potato patch as Rapture...). People of that time KNEW that complaining about it was a waste, and its more upto YOU to get yourself set right. :::: It is actually part of a pattern throughout the whole game that makes it sound like few people there understood what Rapture was to be, even when they were told up front (even selected for believing in its philosophy) - and somehow magically now they all reverse themselves (but then .... Failtopia plot for bang-bang game....) :::: 06:38, March 5, 2015 (UTC) :::: PAGE NEEDS FIXING - Assumptions being remade about Sinclair and Sinclair Deluxe Evidence - Sinclair constantly uses colorful phrases to express himself, and is frequent disdainful of what he sees. So it is a matter of the mistake of always taking what he says literally, instead of reading it in a more understanding way. SO 'slum' and 'rathole' are his derisive comments about the less than affluent accomodations ('rathole' is probably more a comment about the piecemeal worker type person in that set of Audio Diaries). Anyone who cant realize that his comments are hardly literal and keep insisting that they are - they have my sympathies. We also don't know when he made this 'slum' statement. After the Civil War started ? and after people just start living in it for free because of the disorder? (and treating the place the way people who squat in places usually do). He was kicked out by Lamb's minions eventually - might this (audio diary) be a comment sometime after that? You cant really say that isn't the case. If you claim to go by in-game evidence (Yes lets actually try to do that) - take a look at the accomodations actually IN the Hotel that we see : Not quite built as a slum was it?. Rather better than your midrange hotels these days. Fireplaces? Who goes to the expense of putting fireplaces in apartments/rooms meant for low-grade tenant/rentals ? Also try to get your head around the fact that the BS2 appearance is YEARS after Sinclair has had anything to do with the place, and the battles (mentioned in the article which appear to have taken place inside) MIGHT POSSIBLY have something to do with much of the damage we see. (Ritzy (well built?) parts of Rapture we saw in BS1 look equal or far worse). SO It can only be an assumption that the way the place looks is because its a 'cheap' 'slum', and was intended that way by the evil slumlord Sinclair. Maybe perceptions of graduations of appearance is a problem? Fontaines Home for the Poor - thats by far closer to being a 'slum' (go revisit that place which we saw nearly a decade earlier in BS1 to see what real crappy accomodations look like -- visualize what that place looked like before its battle damage - note the prevalence of communal facilites...). Sinclair did build the Sinclair Deluxe for cheaper ("on a Welders Wages"...) accomodations than the rest of Rapture (probably a good business opportunity consistant with his history) - built to be affordable for working people and their families. It DOES NOT have the appearance of a place to Pack-In as many poor/indigent welfare state dependants as your typical 'slum' is (it has individal bathroom facilities, goodsized multiple rooms, kitchens, fireplaces, wallpaper, windows, decorations -- and was apparently built new that way for the expected clientel). The whole 'Paupers Drop' area was obviously built up/redeveloped/revitalized since before when it was just 'a maintenance facility under the tracks' and a 'Hooverville' (note AGAIN - its damaged state seen in BS2 is after the civil war and Lambs predations and her subsequent running of the place for many years). SO the article's verbage trying to imply the place was a swindle by Sinclair is faulty and contrary to visible evidence and unsupportable by misuse of comments made by Sinclair in Audio Diaries. Supposedly this Wiki is NOT to include such assumptions, but apparently still does. 05:16, August 2, 2015 (UTC) :It's hard to take anything you say seriously due to your history on this site. When you're not denouncing the game in a vitriolic fashion, you're facetiously disregarding the comments made by your fellow contributors. To be frank, you've been contemptibly obnoxious in how you've handled yourself. :*Months ago, you wiped most every comment or post you made with your username Testxyz that lead to a drawn out discussion seemingly in an attempt to hide your presence. The end result can be seen above where it looks like I'm talking to my self in the different threads. :*You've previously inserted into various articles like Rapture Timeline information that ''YOU think happened even though there's never been any in-game information that supports it. Events such as a supposed economic crash in 1952 and the cessation of Rapture's architectural expansion are logical fallacies (Specifically, "Appeal to Probability") that have come from your Head Canon (to borrow a phrase another editor has used to describe your personal theories) which you carelessly throw about as fact on this Wiki. The "renovation" of Pauper's Drop into some sort of middle class neighborhood is just another one. :*In September of 2014 you seemingly abandoned objectivity by rewriting the article to down play ceratin aspects that make Augustus Sinclair look bad, play up uncertified information, and inserted comments such as "What did you expect Parquet flooring and Carrara marble?" and "But compare it to Hestia Chambers or Artemis Suites - looks pretty good by comparison - and as seen in BS2 it is 7+ years after Sofia Lamb became the landlord" as official references! :I mention all this to demonstrate a lack of transparency on your part and the repeated push of what I'd go so far as to call your own agenda. :But attending to your comments, I find it astounding for you to just entirely write off Sinclair's own words. Your notion that his words are evocative or vivid and that somehow masks the intent of what he is describing serves only to take responsibility away from him. It's like you're saying, "Oh that, Augustus! Kids just say the darndest things!" Sinclair is not a child, and when he's speaking in his Audio Diary, he's recording his own thoughts. These are his own personal reflections, a chance for him to gloat and marvel at his cunning, intelligence, and prowess. They're not meant for someone else, so why would he lie to himself!? :I'd like you to watch a 15 minute English documentary called Housing Problems, here's the link https://vimeo.com/4950031 . It discusses the problems of slum living in 1935 England and gives a visual of the actual conditions. In it, you'll see plenty of slum housing that actually have wall paper, decor, and fireplaces, so yes there is a precedent for that sort of thing. A slum is not simply crampt conditions or a non-affluent location. Neglect of basic services or upkeep can take what may once have been a good place and downgrade it to a slum. By Sinclair's own admission he stayed away as mcu has possible from Pauper's Drop. :Formerly, this article did contain an excessive amount of assumptions such as the comments about the Fuel Station and supposed "cheap materials." That supposition was dealt with. At this point, I believe a fair balance has been reached that shows The Sinclair Deluxe as both a business acting within the laws of Rapture and an undesireable place to live. Yet you refuse to compromise until everything is written the way you want it. You have a problem with the way Augustus Sinclair and by extention capitalistic entrepenuers are depicted in this series well that's your problem buddy. Ken Levine in Bio1 and the directors of Bio2 weren't interested in creating "fair and balanced" or "true to life" depictions of businessmen in this series. They wanted to make a point. If you can't grasp that then you have my sympathies. :We've previously had cases where particular contributors (Willisjacksonhere, MirandaMishler, ) continued to edit the Booker DeWitt page because they had a particular agenda that they wanted to highlight despite the fact that it had little to do with the subject of the article at hand. I understand your desire to correct prior over-villification of Andrew Ryan as I can concede that this site previously paineted him in more harsh a light than possibly was appropriate, but why on Earth do you continue to defend a man like Augustus Sinclair who's meant to be a personification of ethically-questionable capitalism? :Unownshipper (talk) 06:01, August 4, 2015 (UTC) :"just entirely write off Sinclair's own words" and on the other hand you just take them as 'literal'..... :(Im going to have to get every quote of his and demonstrate his constant use of colorful terms and pattern of putting down certain other people and things.) Self-made men often have views denigrating others they think were just handed their fortunes and worse - flaunting and then wasting it. Maybe he is proud of his achievement and has disdain for others who dont really have any? Does that make him 'evil'? Does he NOT have the right to his own opinion? Is this not supposed to be a different era where you were allowed to call a bum a 'bum' ? :Why should he lie to himself? Is he? Maybe he just talks the way he thinks .. even to himself - DO YOU talk/think to yourself differently than you talk to other people/the public? ('two faced' I believe is the colourful phrase for it). Maybe it is simply a case that he is just honest and talks his OWN mind always? His biased opinion does NOT have to be reality, does it? Assuming he is literal in his expressions (defining Reality) at all times is a mistake. :NOTE - I will use the argument that whats in the Audio Diaries (and various other game 'quotes') LIKEWISE have to be taken frequently as biased opinion and may only give clues to the reality. :BTW - Levine supposedly 'doing it to make a point' when it is based on illogic and distortions - THAT is called Propaganda. It is also maybe a bit hypocritical when you figure 'evil capitalism' is paying Levine & Cos living. Since we hardly even got much information about how Rapture's society worked, other than a vague bunch of biased opinions in some dimly seen corpse-filled wreckage in a tiny bit of a caricature Fail-topia, it is hard to see how a real 'point' could be made honestly. :Looking at that vid : :1) "and the Woodwork hasn't been painted for generations" -- vids direct quote -- clue as to the time span of the 'slum' buildings being talked about (being pre-ww1 also mentioned) :2) 1935 utitities (and if vid is 1935 then alot of the buildings are from even earlier) - electricity relatively new and expensive, gas likewise (used more for illumination, not heating). Burning in fireplace a necessity (note - NOT in Rapture - it is actually a luxury). :3) many dont have water, tap at end of street (communal facilities we didnt see in Sinclair Deluxe) :4) unlikely that gunfights and war went on in the english slums shown (we still saw barricades in the game which was a logical reason for ALOT of the visible damage) :5) the vid's slum scenes look more like Fontaine's Home for the Poor, by far :6) Great Depression era Britain. Not really mentioned was how many were even employed - a welfare state facility (which Sinclairs was not - he built it for people who could pay and had alternatives) :7) "Living in one room" - how many of the apartments seen in the Sinclair Deluxe were only one room? If he wanted to 'pack em in', slumlord Sinclair really did a lousy job of design. :8) If anything, the vid's proposed replacement moderne facilities look MORE like what Sinclair HAD built. (though you need to see what those replacements themselves looked like by the 60s/70s) :I dont think this vid is a particularly effect piece of evidence (the slum part)- find something more 1950s/1960s America to compare. :- :"Neglect of basic services or upkeep can take what may once have been a good place and downgrade it to a slum" :"an undesireable place to live" :Sinclair constructed the Sinclair Deluxe when ? (I think ~1952 because I think thats when there was a big opportunity and some significant shifts in the City) ... you think sometime later(?).... All normalcy stopped 1960 (if not 1959) civil war/post civil war chaos (Im assuming it wouldnt likely be built in all that chaos). :The place was no Taj Mahal, as it WAS constructed with lower RENT intended (somebody opine otherwise?). I would guess that a economic slump brought lower overall wages and material costs - bargains Sinclair would use to build the whole place at less expense (likely making possible the lower rents he could then afford to have). :Sinclair is no longer affiliated with Sinclair Deluxe sometime after Lamb/Rapture Family got in control (damage and dereliction thus hard to definitely blame on Sinclair, when we ONLY see it years later). :So WHEN exactly did The Sinclair Deluxe turn into "an undesireable place to live" ??? We ONLY actually see it in BS2. :Ive said this so many times it makes me wonder - Please tell me when this neglect happened ? Could it possibly be in the years AFTER Lamb was in charge - and Sinclair WAS NO LONGER THERE (wouldnt he have good reason to keep it in pretty good condition for his PAYING customers)? If you cannot answer that, then YOU CANNOT use it as proof that this 'neglect' is to be laid at Sinclair's feet - THAT then is only an Assumption (again something YOUVE said isnt supposed to be allowed here in the Wiki articles). :- : :Again you still think PaupersDrop (ex-Maintenance Junction 17) was ORIGINALLY built with art deco building fronts in it and businesses to THEN revert to Grace's "Hooverville'"? I dont know how many railyards/maintenance yards you've ever been to, but THEY arent filled with fancy Art Deco NYC downtown buildings. No it would have been just a concrete service well (look up inside there) - Under The Tracks - which became a squatter camp (containing people who lost everything because of some Economic distress - either personal or systemic in the city). Then it got rundown after the Civil War. I doubt Sinclair would build a hotel in the middle of it IF it had remained a hobo-jungle - thus the reasoning of significant redevelopment simultaneous with the Sinclair Deluxe - accounting for the Art Deco flash we saw the remains of. :- :Sinclairs ethically-questionable capitalism : LIke what? Lets assume you can grasp my evidence about this Sinclair Deluxe 'swindle' being hooey, In any case - What OTHER evidence is there to support this accusation? - Sinclairs piecemeal work by a cripple who even calls SInclair a sucker for giving him the work ? Providing Low End products (low cost) for consumers to choose? (OMG there were needles in with the cheap (gift shop) Teddy Bears !!!!) Ryans (IMO illogical) comments about Sinclair that might express HIS disdain for Sinclair's small time ventures or lack of worship for Ryans Philosophy)? Running (building..) a jail/prison/insane asylum for the city? Remember HE had to compete, and simple market forces would eliminate his business IF his stuff was too shoddy for the asked price -- It is more shown (IMO) that he was just better at his business than others (making stuff cheaper to sell to more customers and probably at finding the niches where he could do so). Similarly, if he 'cheated' his workers, they could go elsewhere (and you could have seen News articles about that) - he didn't hold them in thrall at gunpoint like Fontaine did, AND he didnt have a supply of illegal aliens to work for sub-standard wages or stolen convicts like Fink had. As I've said before, it is (IMO) more an illogical and not-well-done contrived smear of Sinclair for plot reasons. :So the implication of 'ethically questionable' ... I dont see as supported logically (their smear 'to make a point' was feeble to anyone who knows about real business and history) and tar-brushing Sinclair in the Wiki shouldn't be done (or at least without the contrary evidence/interpretation also being mentioned). :--- :BTW You say I have an agenda (and something about transparency ?) I will explain : Previously I had seen PLENTY of assumptions/guesses/biased-opinion existing ALL over this WIKI's pages when I first looked at it -- So I had assumed that theorizing based on game evidence was OK. So I did some of that - I expressed some of mine (usually using verbage like 'may' 'might' 'possibly' and such wording implying possibilities) on the main pages. A LOT more conjecture and observations (many contrary to the main page content) were also put on the Talk Pages. At some point then I was told that Assumptions are NOT Allowed Here (...seemed strange with all the Assumptions that WERE already present in the articles). I questioned even the disallowing of indirect references to theories extrapolated from the VAGUE visible evidence. That didnt fly so well. :SO THEN complying, I have shifted to no longer making such extrapolated Assumptions/Interpretations on the Article pages. Instead I started to point out (via talk pages) ALL the existing other written Assumptions/Biases/Opinions STILL in the articles, AND mentioning a need for CONSISTENCY in application of that 'No Assumption' rule/whatever. That was ignored for a while, so I 'whitewashed' (to use a colourful Sinclair-esque phrase -- another is 'took a knife to' ) a number of the many unsupported Assumptions/Interpretations in the WIKI's articles - basically leaving only what evidence was mentioned explicitly in the game, eliminating much verbage expressing mere opinions . ( I assume this is meant for the reader to extract and read-between-the-lines for themselves). So still apparently there is some problem. : : 08:14, August 5, 2015 (UTC) ::No, I do not take his comments as literal (unless you're misusing the definition of "literal"), I take them as revealing. ::Whatsmore, I love your logical fallacy of bypassing or derailing the argument by replying with overgeneralizations about successful individuals, comments about Sinclair showing disdain for people beneath him, being proud of his accomplishments, or him not having right of opinion even though none of that is the central issue of contention. NO, you do NOT need to point to every quote he makes, anyone can see that he talks in elevated speach. But you know what, so did Andrew Ryan, Julie Langford, Sander Cohen, etc. Singing ones own praise or celebrating ones success does not make them evil (not that anyone ever said that, but I guess we have to make that clear in front of you), it's privately guffawing about how your actions are screwing over others that does. Ryan denounced "The Parasite" in his diaries, but he never talked about working to earn a buck off them. Rather, Frank Fontaine is the type who did that in his logs (yet I don't hear you calling his statements "colorful exagerations") and many/most of Sincalir's diaries are more akin to Fontaine's diaries. ::And you keep using the phrase "colorful language." Whether or not his word choice is vivid or varied is hardly the point. Look up the trope of the Southern Gentleman, which Sinclair ostensibly is, and you'll note that loquacious eloquence is a standard aspect. Still, for all his verbosity the Southern Gentleman conveys his meaning through tone and action. Anyone can see the point Sinclair's making through his repeated business ventures. ::I again state that your assertion that his use of similies and evocative language somehow takes away the core meaning of his comments only robs Sinclair of agency and responsibility for his actions. ::"His biased opinion does NOT have to be reality, does it" Wow you're really doing back flips here aren't you? By your logic, nothing stated by any character can ever be taken as evidence. I brought up the "why would he lie" argument to make a point. The "these comments are only the opinion of the speaker and nothing more" argument only works if we have many, many audio diraies that directly conflict with eachother about the same issue AND we have a sepearate objective source that shows what really went down. The problem is that's not encountered in the game. That sort of conflicting POV narrative might have made for an interesting literary device, but as it stands, we usually only find one audio diary that talks about a particular subject, and that's it (Ryan's Vandalism, Martin Finnegan's The Iceman Cometh, Pierre Gobbi's Water in Wine, etc.). We don't get the other side of the story, and probably won't. So here we SHOULD assume that the speaker is being honest. That's the WHOLE POINT of the diaries in the games' narratives, they're an in-universe way to pass on plot information without sounding unnecessarily expositionally. So you've got Sinclair, Grace Holloway, and others speaking to the condition of Pauper's Drop and life within it, yet you don't trust them. ::Call it propoganda or whatever you want, that's your problem friendo. None of that effects the current topic. Nobody's saying Levine's right or wrong, he can be on his soap box with his game. And you can be too, just not HERE in the community wiki. Go make your own game and impress everyone with a narrative where capitalism works perfectly, I'm sure it'll be a hit. ::Yeah, I had that 1950s/1960s era American slum video just waiting, but I though I'd show you this one instead. Housing Problems was all I had access to on the Internet, and while it's not a one to one reflecion OBVIOUSLY, I brought it up to show hop people living in true life slums had all the stuff you consider luxuries ("individal bathroom facilities, goodsized multiple rooms, kitchens, fireplaces, wallpaper, windows, decorations"). Also, fireplaces seem to be more of a necessity in Rapture, a place at the cold bottom of the sea, where a single busted water pipe could freeze due to the frigid temperature. ::Again, you think 1952 because of your head cannon, but there's nothing to say it wasn't earlier either. I never implied later, but go on and put more words in my mouth. And excuse me, but people lived in Pauper's Drop BECAUSE they had no alterntatives. Therefore it was always undesireable, and again, you have differnt people saying just how bad the place is in radio comments, audio diaries, and gamemaker comments. ::Sinclair's ethically-questionable capitalism: how about selling Johnny Topside into slavery and experimental testing? Or maybe you've conveniently forgotten about Persephone, Rapture's secret gulag? Then again, there's always the Sinclair Solutions Home Consumer Rewards Program, AKA live weapons testing on aggitated, drug-addicted public citizens! Sinclair made a fortune through spin and exploitation. Usually, the bulk of his consumers consist of the most vulnerable of Raptue. Sinclair Deluxe & Sinclair Spirits outlines an effective means of gaining both rent money and drinking money from depressed and desperate individuals. I could talk more about market totalitarianism, dopamine, or consumer addicition, but I'm sure you'll just ignore it. Note how I never called it out and out evil, I called it ethically-questionable. But just like cigarette companies promoting their products and hiding information about the dangers of smoking in the 1960s, Sincair is out to profit himself no matter the potential drawbacks. ::And I'd still like to know why you're defending a man like him. You know what, I don't think I want to know. ::You were never told to ERASE information on the Talk Pages, that IS a violation of policy. Fan theorizing is perfectly fine on the Talk, but YOU put it into the main pages, as I listed above. No one ever said assumptions aren't allowed here on the Talk, they probably just told you to go away because of your abrassive character. ::Unownshipper (talk) 03:22, August 11, 2015 (UTC) ::--- ::"evil" you are the one who labeled him 'unethical' (and I'm still waiting for proof of that - and I'm not accepting flawed partial mentions of ordinary business practices (and the leaving out the full context -- in trying to make Sinclair out a swindler). ::"And I'd still like to know why you're defending a man like him." -- here your very own words show that you think him ... 'evil'. :: ::"he never talked about working to earn a buck off them" - Ryan is an industrialist. He deals with forests not trees. It is Sinclair who gets into the nitty-gritty niche stuff and is an expert at it (and perhaps THATS why Ryan looks down on Sinclair). ::"so did Andrew Ryan, Julie Langford, Sander Cohen, Frank Fontaine, etc." --'' '' ::irrelevant we are not talking about them here. I can go into length about them elsewhere. :: ::"nothing stated by any character can ever be taken as evidence." It is actually that such testimonies are ONLY evidence of what the Testifiers think they saw from their SUBJECTIVE point of view. Maybe you have missed the legal requirement that testimony by itself is usually insufficient for a conviction. Never heard of a hostile witness? NOW WHY might that be the case if your "ANY testimony is simple truth" and can only be taken as truth even on lack of any contrary testimony (isn't that what you are assuming?) Sorry bias can very easily taint 'what someone says', and can make it VERY far from the Truth. :: :: ::"So here we SHOULD assume that the speaker is being honest" ... Honest POV doesn't mean what they say is the TRUTH about Reality. In the game they are only helping paint a picture of what people thought (and thus their motivations being explained). As I've said before, the perceptions rammed down the players throat are contrived to lead you to the plot twist or whatever other emotional yankings they wanted - evil Ryan : king and tyrant of the Fail-topia and his disasterous philosophy (not), unethical Sinclair is shaped to make the player doubt him and give Sofia more ammunition for her wheedlings. ::"the WHOLE POINT of the diaries in the games' narratives" -- not true -- its also a way to get more flavor into that plot info - accents, emotives, colloquialisms, inflections,(even sound effects) that are VERY hard to do with simple text or a standardized narration voice. It adds alot to the game to hear more what various inhabitants said and thought (and reviewable/inspectable moreso than one-time dialog directly from in-game NPCs who really can't typically do much more than a bunch of disjoint one-liners and a few antics - beides the flashback/back-history aspect). ::"life slums had all the stuff you consider luxuries ("individal bathroom facilities, goodsized multiple rooms, kitchens, fireplaces, wallpaper, windows, decorations." You might wanna go back and view it again as most of those things are missing in that vids 'slums' (and again a fireplace in Rapture IS a luxury, and it wasn't in those slums, as there was NO other heating in them). You might also note the condition difference (8 years with no maintenance in the Sinclair Deluxe !!! - I'd think I would want that brand of paint that lasted THAT long - whereever the walls weren't blasted apart). ::"So you've got Sinclair, Grace Holloway, and others speaking to the condition of Pauper's Drop and life within it, yet you don't trust them." Ive been through this before -WHEN is Grace talking about her 'Hooverville' , and WHAT WE SEE IN-GAME IS FROM ~8 YEARS AFTER SINCLAIR HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT !!!!!!!!! (seriously how can you KEEP missing those points). I never said it wasn't a shantytown (that is what a HOOVERVILLE is) at one time. I did say that it looks like that early shantytown was then rebuilt (I guess Sinclair had something to do with it), and THEN the Civil War f$%^&ked the place over, AND THEN the Lamb's Regime ran the place (look at her HQ in Persephone - Lamb didn't even see it necessary to keep a modicum of order/upkeep in her own home, neither for her minions there either -- REALLY, how hard would it have been to slap a coat of paint on the place???) AND THEN we finally see its final state in the game. :: It is not I "dont trust them" - I dont SEE complete evidence - through the Audio Diaries I see vagaries and disjoint statements, which make it hard to make the assumptions YOU are making. ::Grace in her radio msgs rants alot about how awful the place was (note - "WAS" but never quite mentions WHEN) And if its been in her charge for ~8 years, she hasn't much right to be complaining about others. :: ::"1952" I stated IMO didnt I ? My supposition is good or better than yours (yours for it being very late? ). Yes, it could have been several years earlier (but not TOO close to Rapture's building) and could be somewhat later (but most likely NOT during the Civil War, and BaS didn't paint the doom and gloom of a Depression situation in Rapture). I have repeatedly stated the convergence of several likely factors that could lead to some significant economic distress which happend sometime around 1952 --- and then I present the tie-in/logical overlap with my little timeline for Paupers Drop (above). ::"how about selling Johnny Topside into slavery" Wheres the complete story? Where are much details, at all? Did he volunteer? (a common practice in 50s for inmate to volunteer for testing to get better treatment/early release - That Poster...) Was he Spliced up BEFORE he even was sent there (drugs is drugs) and masybe so deranged his only fit use was 'testing' service (and imagine the pull to a 'thirsty' Splicer of the bribe of getting ADAM if you go and do this 'testing' ....). Did Lamb work on him and coersed him into 'volunteering' (Sinclairs mentions Lamb doing that to inmates don't he?? either to preserve her 'followers' or to preserve HERSELF). ::Lots of WHAT IFS and lots of missing story there. So you are making assumptions, and I am countering with OTHER plausible assumptions. :: ::"forgotten about Persephone" You mean the place SInclair built for the City - the combined prison/jail/insane-asylum ? Sinclair says he got access to some technical expertise (I seriously question the extent of his 'brain trust' if you size up the likely prison population and spectrum of people in it). :: :: "the Sinclair Solutions Home Consumer Rewards Program," an excuse for MP play - not the greatest support evidence... We don't know how many people were involved or how long this 'testing' was done. 1) he would NOT likely equipt Atlas's Boys (who BTW would want him dead) and 2) testing has to end so you can get on with production (Ryan is footing the bill, no?) 3) by the state of the places seen in the scenarios, Rapture is already a basketcase (kinda late for 'testing' dont you think?) Now if it (MP Scenario) had been REAL faction fighting (like street fighting in Berlin in the 20s) it might have made more sense (but you would loose all the funny 'digs' at commercialism and might have to exposed/made clearer what a bunch of terrorists Atlas's side was - and fighting on their side would apeal a bit less as you might have to have 'civilians getting in the way of the fighting and the damage/failures of infrastructure imperilling everyone alive. ::"Sinclair Deluxe & Sinclair Spirits outlines an" you mean the non-existant one in Paupers drop (and the REMOVED audio diary you base your argument on? Alcohol was ALL OVER Rapture (if you hadn't noticed). No need to have it only there - discount it everywhere would be Sinclair's tactic. Keep his 'slum' renters when he already had the cheapest place in town ? Why would/could they go elsewhere ??? If they don't have much money, then losing them as renters when he gains some at a liquor store?? As I said long ago, that doesn't make business sense. Making them lamer than they already were - assisting their alcoholism... Note all the other sources of alcohol EVERYWHERE. Actually a high-falootin place like "Sinclair Spirits" wouldn't fit - and a LOCAL Grocery Store that sold BOOZE and everything else (discounted or otherwise) would have been a better business move. :: ::"Sinclair made a fortune through spin and exploitation. Usually, the bulk of his consumers consist of the most vulnerable of Raptue" Does he? What Spin ?? Where does it say he lied about his products(cite)? Another of your assumtions? 'usually' ... Im not sure what you base such assumptions on. He made Plasmids didn't he? - were they substandard or something (cite) ? HE bought and processed Scrap metal ... He did research for other companies. He sold cheap toys to Tourist site gift shops (AND gave the owner a really good deal). He built a Prison Facility for the City (and sort-of ran it). He ran a Hotel for people who couldn't afford other places, or was cheaper and gave those people options with the rest of that money (and NO it wasn't a 'slum' when HE was renting out rooms there) - and No "no alternative" as those who couldn't afford even that would just find another 'maintenance tunnel' to inhabit (the Sinclair Deluxe had paying customers) . He employed cripples gainfully. Prisoners rented for 'testing' (as mentioned '''where is the rest of that story to have enough to make a judgement) BOOZE ?? OMG he sold booze!!!! Rapture was floating in booze if you hadn't noticed. OMG he asked a woman for the rent that was due - how evil !!!!! (is this the kind of thing you are basing your statement on ?) Sure, they were VERY selective/manipulative about making it looked like all his profits came from swindles/unethical practices (ignoring actual necessities of business that most people don't even realize happen). Alot of what he sold DID have competition (and he aimed at lower quality products to be sold at a lower price). Is he evil because he made a profit? Maybe to some THAT is 'exploitation', and the game plays to such ignorance. ::A problem is that the game writers were playing LOOSE (its a 'shooter' game after all, and not a documentary) with a situation with its basis being the Real World from the late 40s and 50s - one with known social patterns/conventions/thinking and motivations and actions and perspectives and historical references (that whole Nostalgia thing). Then with a only an icing layer's difference from that historic world (it is based on a recognizable world system/society - at least to those who see old movies or lived through it or know a little history - thats universe filler details they don't actually need to present/explain in-game - that player assumption of how things normally work). ::.... AND THEN they are to subject it to a sci-fi phenomenon and illustrating what they think would have happened (and then apply the plot they decide to follow, for 'story'). Except in their implementation they discard/warp/omit significant things from that Real World basis, when it is simply easier to (when something gets in the way of the plot they've decided on). IF it was a fantasy basis society then they just could say "its what we say it is", but here they can't. And it is noticable. ::Add limited budget and time and expertise and having no priority to keep things pure/kosher logically - "it is only a game". :: 06:54, August 12, 2015 (UTC)